Please post one quotation (with page number) and one related discussion question from our reading of Antigone so far. Click "comment" on this original post to add your quote and question. Thanks!
It seems like Antigone is the type of person who does things her own way, not caring if she will receive help or not. She only wants help from those who agree with her opinions. When Creon tells Antigone of her punishment and Ismene tries to be there for her, she says, "You shall not die with me. You shall not claim that which you would not touch" (pg 141).
Creon: "And when King Oedipus so wisely ruled us, And again upon his death, faithfully served His sons, till they in turn fell" Was Oedipus that great of a ruler? Even though he killed his father, married his mother, made her commit suicide, and poked out his eyes? Was he still that great of a ruler?
Although not much detail is given on Oedipus's life before his story, I like to think that he had the best intentions for his life and parents. He left what he thought was his home town to save who he thought were his parents from the prophecy. He didn't want to ruin his family, so he left, trying to avoid that pain, only he didn't know that he was adopted, and he ended up going to the pain instead. He loves his family enough to protect them. Also, when he is king, and learns of the plague, he searches earnestly to end the plague and find the man who killed Laius. Oepipus ultimately wanted the best for his family and his people, but little did he know that in doing so would run into so much tragedy along the way.
Ismene: "What is it, Antigone? Black news, I can see already". Is Ismane always this way when receiving news and relating to people? Is she a pessimist all the time, or is she just trying to be sympathetic?
Ismene I can tell she lowkey cares for Antigone it's tough love but Antigone sees it as not supporting her. Later Ismene wants to be by Antigones side but Antigone doesn't want her help since she wasn't there for her in the beginning.
"Seven invaders at seven gates seven defenders Spoiled of their bronze for a tribute to Zeus; save two Luckless brothers in one fight matched together And in one death laid low." Who are these seven invaders and defenders, and do they have a major inportance to the story? I understand who the luckless brothers are, but who are the invaders and defenders?
It may have something to do with equal forces like the brothers line, but in this case it is the 7 attackers and defenders. They might not be actual characters, but they could be a symbol of equal force.
Antigone says, “Is he not my brother, and yours, whether you like it Or not? I shall never desert him, never.” Does anyone else get the feeling that Antigone thinks herself better than her sister? Will Antigone look even further down on her sister in the future?
I think that Antigone thinks herself superior to Ismene, and later, when Ismene tries to join her in her death sentence, Antigone derides her: "That is not just. You would not lend a hand/and I refused your help in what I did... I love no friend whose love is only words." (pg 141)
"and what will be the end of us, If we transgress law and defy our king? ... it is not for us to fight against men... we must obey in this, or worse than this... but as I am commanded; to do more is madness"
Is that which is lawful always good? What does this passage say about the prevailing ideas on law and good in contemporary Greek society?
That which is lawful is not always good. For example, it used to be law to turn in runaway slaves. Greek society was very focused on power and respect to the leaders or be punished. "Haemon: I neither am nor wish to be clever enough to prove you wrong, though all men might not think the same as you do" Haemon tries to tell his father, the king that his law is unmoral even though he wishes to be an obedient son.
Antigone, going against what Ismene is telling her and disobeying the wishes of burial says, "He has no right to keep me from my own." Why does Antigone truly think she can do whatever she wants with her brothers body after death? Does she think she does not have to obey the rules of burial just because she doesn't want to "desert him"?
Later when brought before Creon Antigone states, "I knew that I should have to die, of course, With or without your order. If it be soon, So much the better." It seems to me like Antigone does not necessarily think herself above the law so much as she just does not care about the consequences and is willing to accept whatever Creon does to her.
Antigone makes it pretty clear why she thinks she can disobey the king's order and go ahead and bury her father: she says, "That order did not come from God. Justice / That dwells with the gods below, knows no such law / I did not think your edicts strong enough / To overrule the unwritten unalterable laws / Of God and heaven, you being only a man" (138). To Antigone, Creon's law is by far inferior to her idea of morality. She believes she is following the laws of justice and of God by ignoring Creon's edict. I can see a possible connection to Mere Christianity here, in talking about the existence of Moral Law--that seems to be sort of what Antigone is referring to. --Halle (via email)
Isemene: "My poor Antigone, if this is really true, what more can I do, or undo, to help you?" Why does Isemene say "undo"? Is this indicating that she has power to completely reverse time; change the unchangeable? Is she more than an ordinary human?
Ishmene is merely trying to show remorse towards Antigone. She isn't literally going to go back into time and change the past. More likely Ishmene would see if she can try to talk to Creon to have a proper burial and convince him to do that, as if their sentence to death never happened.
Antigone: "And now is the time to show whether or not you are worthy of your high blood." Antigone is kind of bringing up a competition for Ismene to show, and sounds like he is almost threatening her. Does Antigone want her to show that she is worthy of her royal blood?
"I think it's very interesting that in the beginning of the story, Antigone focuses on this aspect of royal blood, but at the end of the novel, her bloodline becomes cursed and a burden. It is similar to the total flip of gender roles in the play, how women are first seen as not able to stand up for themselves, but at the end, Antigone takes her fate into her own hands and kills herself. “ --Aaliyah (via email)
Antigone: "I know my duty, where true duty lies." Antigone doesn't show any fear while Ismene believes she's bound to fail. Why does Ismene believe Antigone is bound to fail?
It seems like Ismene is trying to balance more priorities than Antigone is. Antigone is just looking at one goal, not worrying about the consequences. Ismene doesn't seem to think Antigone will fail at burying Polynices, just that she will then die for it. Later, Creon makes the same sort of decision-based-on-one-goal as Antigone does. His ONLY goal seems to be to give honor to friends and dishonor to enemies (oh yeah, and be right all the time and have everyone obey him). Only at the end of the play does he finally admit other things are important too (like not killing people and like listening to advice).
"O think, Antigone; we are women; it is not for us / To fight against men" (128) Will these characters (Antigone in particular) continue to defy the traditional gender roles of their time. And if so, how will that contribute to the meaning of the work.
She does continue to defy the gender roles assigned to women. By continuing to fight against everyone who told her not to bury her brother and by ending up getting in trouble by doing so, she stood her ground and kept fighting the "men" who were going against her. It contributes to the meaning of the work showing that Antigone is a strong woman and reveals that women are truly strong and can carry a story. - Olivia
I do think that they continue to defy gender roles but I don't think that is the main reason why Antigone is doing what she is doing. I think her motivation is to do what she thinks is right despite gender roles. -Alexa
Antigone: "No; then I will not ask you for your help. Nor would I thank you for it, if you gave it." Why is she so rude to Ismene? She seems to be very full of herself, how will this play into her downfall and character?
I think Antigone and Ismene do not have a good relationship and do not have the same views. Antigone has said to her sister, "You chose; life was your choice, when mine was death," this foreshadows into the end of the story where Antigone ends up actually killing herself, as pride overcame her, and her sister did not.
Antigone: "Convicted of reverence -- I shall be content To lie beside a brother whom I love. We have only a little time to please the living, But all eternity to love the dead. There I shall lie for ever. Live, if you wil; Live, and defy the holiest laws of heaven."
Do you agree there are moral laws one is called to obey before obeying the laws in place?
Throughout the play, Antigone remains true to her convictions and even when put under pressure from Creon, does not denounce her actions. She never admits any wrongdoing and, in fact, defends her choices at every chance. This is supported by the Harmon saying, "[Antigone's fate is] most unjust, that ever woman suffered For an honorable action-- burying a brother... Has she not rather earned a crown of gold?" --Macy Vinther
"Antigone: Will you help me? Will you do something with me? Will you?" Does Antigone usually ask for help or does she like to do things on her own?
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Antigone is the type of person who does things her own way, not caring if she will receive help or not. She only wants help from those who agree with her opinions. When Creon tells Antigone of her punishment and Ismene tries to be there for her, she says, "You shall not die with me. You shall not claim that which you would not touch" (pg 141).
DeleteCreon: "And when King Oedipus so wisely ruled us, And again upon his death, faithfully served His sons, till they in turn fell" Was Oedipus that great of a ruler? Even though he killed his father, married his mother, made her commit suicide, and poked out his eyes? Was he still that great of a ruler?
ReplyDeleteAlthough not much detail is given on Oedipus's life before his story, I like to think that he had the best intentions for his life and parents. He left what he thought was his home town to save who he thought were his parents from the prophecy. He didn't want to ruin his family, so he left, trying to avoid that pain, only he didn't know that he was adopted, and he ended up going to the pain instead. He loves his family enough to protect them. Also, when he is king, and learns of the plague, he searches earnestly to end the plague and find the man who killed Laius. Oepipus ultimately wanted the best for his family and his people, but little did he know that in doing so would run into so much tragedy along the way.
DeleteIsmene: "What is it, Antigone? Black news, I can see already". Is Ismane always this way when receiving news and relating to people? Is she a pessimist all the time, or is she just trying to be sympathetic?
ReplyDeleteIsmene I can tell she lowkey cares for Antigone it's tough love but Antigone sees it as not supporting her. Later Ismene wants to be by Antigones side but Antigone doesn't want her help since she wasn't there for her in the beginning.
Delete-Shady Zakhary
"Seven invaders at seven gates seven defenders
ReplyDeleteSpoiled of their bronze for a tribute to Zeus; save two
Luckless brothers in one fight matched together
And in one death laid low." Who are these seven invaders and defenders, and do they have a major inportance to the story? I understand who the luckless brothers are, but who are the invaders and defenders?
It may have something to do with equal forces like the brothers line, but in this case it is the 7 attackers and defenders. They might not be actual characters, but they could be a symbol of equal force.
DeleteAntigone says, “Is he not my brother, and yours, whether you like it Or not? I shall never desert him, never.” Does anyone else get the feeling that Antigone thinks herself better than her sister? Will Antigone look even further down on her sister in the future?
ReplyDeleteI think that Antigone thinks herself superior to Ismene, and later, when Ismene tries to join her in her death sentence, Antigone derides her: "That is not just. You would not lend a hand/and I refused your help in what I did... I love no friend whose love is only words." (pg 141)
Delete"and what will be the end of us, If we transgress law and defy our king? ... it is not for us to fight against men... we must obey in this, or worse than this... but as I am commanded; to do more is madness"
ReplyDeleteIs that which is lawful always good? What does this passage say about the prevailing ideas on law and good in contemporary Greek society?
That which is lawful is not always good. For example, it used to be law to turn in runaway slaves. Greek society was very focused on power and respect to the leaders or be punished. "Haemon: I neither am nor wish to be clever enough to prove you wrong, though all men might not think the same as you do" Haemon tries to tell his father, the king that his law is unmoral even though he wishes to be an obedient son.
DeleteAntigone, going against what Ismene is telling her and disobeying the wishes of burial says, "He has no right to keep me from my own."
ReplyDeleteWhy does Antigone truly think she can do whatever she wants with her brothers body after death? Does she think she does not have to obey the rules of burial just because she doesn't want to "desert him"?
Later when brought before Creon Antigone states, "I knew that I should have to die, of course, With or without your order. If it be soon, So much the better." It seems to me like Antigone does not necessarily think herself above the law so much as she just does not care about the consequences and is willing to accept whatever Creon does to her.
DeleteAntigone makes it pretty clear why she thinks she can disobey the king's order and go ahead and bury her father: she says, "That order did not come from God. Justice / That dwells with the gods below, knows no such law / I did not think your edicts strong enough / To overrule the unwritten unalterable laws / Of God and heaven, you being only a man" (138). To Antigone, Creon's law is by far inferior to her idea of morality. She believes she is following the laws of justice and of God by ignoring Creon's edict. I can see a possible connection to Mere Christianity here, in talking about the existence of Moral Law--that seems to be sort of what Antigone is referring to. --Halle (via email)
DeleteIsemene: "My poor Antigone, if this is really true, what more can I do, or undo, to help you?"
ReplyDeleteWhy does Isemene say "undo"? Is this indicating that she has power to completely reverse time; change the unchangeable? Is she more than an ordinary human?
Ishmene is merely trying to show remorse towards Antigone. She isn't literally going to go back into time and change the past. More likely Ishmene would see if she can try to talk to Creon to have a proper burial and convince him to do that, as if their sentence to death never happened.
DeleteAntigone: "And now is the time to show whether or not you are worthy of your high blood."
ReplyDeleteAntigone is kind of bringing up a competition for Ismene to show, and sounds like he is almost threatening her. Does Antigone want her to show that she is worthy of her royal blood?
-Alex Hochhalter
"I think it's very interesting that in the beginning of the story, Antigone focuses on this aspect of royal blood, but at the end of the novel, her bloodline becomes cursed and a burden. It is similar to the total flip of gender roles in the play, how women are first seen as not able to stand up for themselves, but at the end, Antigone takes her fate into her own hands and kills herself. “ --Aaliyah (via email)
DeleteAntigone: "I know my duty, where true duty lies."
ReplyDeleteAntigone doesn't show any fear while Ismene believes she's bound to fail. Why does Ismene believe Antigone is bound to fail?
- Shady Zakhary
It seems like Ismene is trying to balance more priorities than Antigone is. Antigone is just looking at one goal, not worrying about the consequences. Ismene doesn't seem to think Antigone will fail at burying Polynices, just that she will then die for it. Later, Creon makes the same sort of decision-based-on-one-goal as Antigone does. His ONLY goal seems to be to give honor to friends and dishonor to enemies (oh yeah, and be right all the time and have everyone obey him). Only at the end of the play does he finally admit other things are important too (like not killing people and like listening to advice).
Delete"O think, Antigone; we are women; it is not for us / To fight against men" (128)
ReplyDeleteWill these characters (Antigone in particular) continue to defy the traditional gender roles of their time. And if so, how will that contribute to the meaning of the work.
-Halle
She does continue to defy the gender roles assigned to women. By continuing to fight against everyone who told her not to bury her brother and by ending up getting in trouble by doing so, she stood her ground and kept fighting the "men" who were going against her. It contributes to the meaning of the work showing that Antigone is a strong woman and reveals that women are truly strong and can carry a story. - Olivia
DeleteI do think that they continue to defy gender roles but I don't think that is the main reason why Antigone is doing what she is doing. I think her motivation is to do what she thinks is right despite gender roles. -Alexa
DeleteAntigone:
ReplyDelete"No; then I will not ask you for your help.
Nor would I thank you for it, if you gave it."
Why is she so rude to Ismene? She seems to be very full of herself, how will this play into her downfall and character?
-Aaliyah
I think Antigone and Ismene do not have a good relationship and do not have the same views. Antigone has said to her sister, "You chose; life was your choice, when mine was death," this foreshadows into the end of the story where Antigone ends up actually killing herself, as pride overcame her, and her sister did not.
DeleteAntigone: "Convicted of reverence -- I shall be content
ReplyDeleteTo lie beside a brother whom I love.
We have only a little time to please the living,
But all eternity to love the dead.
There I shall lie for ever. Live, if you wil;
Live, and defy the holiest laws of heaven."
Do you agree there are moral laws one is called to obey before obeying the laws in place?
-Macy
"He has no right to keep me from my own"
ReplyDeleteWill Antigone continue to prioritize moral law above cultural laws?
-Alexa
Throughout the play, Antigone remains true to her convictions and even when put under pressure from Creon, does not denounce her actions. She never admits any wrongdoing and, in fact, defends her choices at every chance. This is supported by the Harmon saying, "[Antigone's fate is] most unjust, that ever woman suffered
DeleteFor an honorable action-- burying a brother...
Has she not rather earned a crown of gold?"
--Macy Vinther